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Failure is inevitable, but how we respond to it reveals so much about our character. In this episode, Alex and Ben reflect on what it looks like for a leader to grow through failure. They explore the different ways people might define failure based on their personalities, discuss the difference between failure and mistakes, and share practical advice for leaders looking to respond in a healthy way after their team experiences a failure.
Information isn’t the gap between failure and success—action is. Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching helps you create a plan and execute on what matters most for your business. Apply today at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
Episode Recap:
- Here’s what you can expect from the podcast moving forward
- What about failure is challenging to you?
- How personality impacts our view of failure
- There’s a difference between failure of character and failure of performance
- What does it look like to fail well?
- Responding to failure with pride can lead us to sin
- How can leaders communicate well after a team failure?
- Humility is understanding that we are enough through Christ
- How can leaders take responsibility for failure without stealing responsibility?
If you’re ready to move beyond just gathering information and start executing on what truly matters, Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching can help. Apply now at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
Resources:
Join us for our 2025 Experience – Long Game Leadership
Connect with our Founder Alex Judd on LinkedIn and Instagram
Connect with our Founder Alex Judd on LinkedIn and Instagram
Creators and Guests
What is Path for Growth?
Path for Growth exists to help impact-driven leaders step into who they were created to be SO THAT others benefit and God is glorified.
So in the interest of building in public right now, we we said, man, we're gonna launch a video channel. And then we were like, we're gonna outfit this room inside my house. But we're like, well, we wanna do something with that door. Let's install a hidden door before we, before we launch this thing. And then we're like, we don't need to wait.
Alex Judd:So literally the contractor's been been in here all week. There's still a hole in this wall that we covered up, but this studio is very much a work in progress right now is what we would say. But I I personally am glad we started.
Ben Loy:Yep. I would agree.
Alex Judd:So the second thing is that one of the things that we are really excited about with the video channel that we're now launching is the different formats that we want to test in terms of content and conversation. And so we just kind of wanted to prep people with what that's going to look like because you're going to experience all three of these formats moving forward and there's one particularly that we're going to do for the first time today. So the first is very standard guest interview. There are people that we know have established leadership roles and experiences or have an irresistible message that we're so pumped to have some of those people on here. And some of them, like, maybe a household name, some of them might be someone you never heard of, but they are just so good on the topic that they're interested in, and we're pumped to talk to those people in here.
Alex Judd:So that that's guest interviews. The second one are topics that are more teaching oriented. Right? So these are going to be kind of maybe not fully predefined, but largely predefined outlines that we are going to walk through together. Maybe you and I, maybe some of the members of our team, maybe other leaders that we really respect and say, we're gonna walk through content that is really based on the multitude of leaders that we've coached, learned from, the things that we've experienced in building our business, and we're gonna distill that down into really actionable content episodes.
Alex Judd:And then the third one is what we're doing today and I'm I'm personally really excited about this because I think it's new and different. We're kind of defining this as exploratory episodes. And so when we say exploratory episodes, we are not in any way painting ourselves as experts on the topic at hand. What we are saying is we are extremely interested practitioners of the topic at hand. And one of the things that I deeply believe is that the best form of conversation almost feels like mutual exploration, where you have a topic that you're like, man, I am like legitimately genuinely interested on this.
Alex Judd:I do not have all the answers, but I kind of want to use you as the person that I ping my thoughts on. And you can say, Alex, I think you're being an idiot. Or you can say like, man, I think that's actually really solid and and, we're going to do that today. So the the format y'all can expect in within these exploratory conversations is for the purposes of today at least, it's gonna be Ben and I taking a topic that we think is hyper relevant for us individually, but also widely relevant for leaders in general. And we just came with some predefined thoughts, but also predefined questions that the goal would be, let's just get an hour further down the road in terms of how we think of the nuances of this topic.
Alex Judd:So before we jump into the actual topic, anything else you'd add on the format that you just want people to be aware of?
Ben Loy:Yeah. I think when we were brainstorming and we were thinking about different topics that we could cover when it comes to exploration, this one stuck out to me because I I think particularly how people navigate through failures says a lot about who they are in their character. Mhmm. But also can kind of shed a light into even maybe just thinking errors or, I guess, when someone experiences failure, it can shed a light into maybe some beliefs that they had that were incorrect about themselves, about God, about the world that we live in. Mhmm.
Ben Loy:And if you're not conscious about how you're navigating through that failure, you're not gonna grow.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Yeah. Well, you chose the topic. You get us started. Where do you wanna jump
Ben Loy:in first? Well, I could start with a really heavy hitter. So Okay. Good. What is it about failure that is most challenging to you personally?
Alex Judd:You're gonna answer this too. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man.
Alex Judd:Well and this is one of the questions that I genuinely have too that I would like for us to get into is there is so much content out there on learning from failure, recovering from failure, how you, redeem your failures, all of that. And I I have literally heard podcasters in particular say that's one of the topics that performs best on their channels, which I always thought was so interesting because I personally I personally do not resonate with the word failure very much. Like, that is not a word that I think of very much. It's not not It's actually very hard as I was kind of preparing my thoughts on this. It was hard for me to black and white characterize, oh, those were things in my life or in my business or my leadership that were concrete failures because it's like, I mean, the leader's mindset, right, is you either win or you learn.
Alex Judd:Right?
Ben Loy:Yeah.
Alex Judd:So I think I don't resonate with the language of failure very much, but if we are gonna adopt that language for the purpose of this conversation, I think the thing just being very candid that I struggle with more than anything is actually the image of not being successful. Like, you know, if you if we do something stupid as a business, which we have done stupid as a business before, I am always shocked at how we might have lost thousands of dollars in that stupid mistake that we made or that stupid thing that I did as a leader or something like that. We may have lost thousands of dollars, but the thing that gets to me the most is what it looks like to other people. As I mean, that's very vulnerable to say, but it's something that I I feel like I pray about and I'm working on growing in is like because I think that does, like you said, reveal something about character that it's like, that's the thing that I lift up. I actually don't care about the dollars and cents as much.
Alex Judd:Praise God. That's not my idol. Mhmm. But my idol certainly can be winning the approval of others. And so I guess that's how I kind of coincide with the topic in some ways.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Yeah. I think I would relate a lot. I think when it comes to failure, often we want to project this image of being successful. We like to feel good about what we do.
Ben Loy:We like to feel like we're we're accomplishing often things. And I think anytime we fall short of the expectations that we place in our own heads and the standards that we hold ourselves to, it puts you up against not only what do other people think of me, but, like, is what I think of myself accurate? Or, like, does this failure define or I make a statement on on, like, who I am or how I'm built. And obviously, logic would tell you no. But often, I think when you're in in the middle of it, what's most challenging is kind of parsing that apart.
Alex Judd:Yeah. So This feels like, two threes on an enneagram walking
Ben Loy:Yeah.
Alex Judd:Walking to a bar.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Maybe maybe we should have put that disclaimer
Alex Judd:Preface in that. Yeah. So I I guess that's a question I would have. I think it's actually probably pretty helpful that we're both threes on the Enneagram because I know for a fact there are a lot of our customers that are threes on the Enneagram and a lot of our audiences because, you know, I've hosted this podcast for five years now, and I'm a three on the Enneagram. And I speak about the things that are most challenging to me, and it turns out people that are wired like me respond to that.
Alex Judd:Right? But I think within that, what are some of the ways that you've observed, like, people relate to or maybe are challenged by the topic of failure if their personality is wired different than you? Is a question that could be worth asking. And maybe we look at, like, a couple different personality types even on the Enneagram. So, like, a one is a perfectionist.
Alex Judd:Right. I'd be interested to know if you relate to this. I often, I I have a lot of friends that are perfectionists. I have family that's perfectionists and like they are very interested in is it perfect? And like my question is, did I win?
Alex Judd:Right? Like, I'm like, I don't care if it's perfect or not. It's not going to be perfect. Like I but so I guess I don't really connect with the person that, like, failure for them is less than perfection. Thoughts there?
Ben Loy:Yeah. Well, funny story. When I first took the Enneagram, and this was, I think, maybe ten years ago now, I scored equally as a one and a three. Okay. Interesting.
Ben Loy:I think, like, after some reflection and actually reading about the motivations and things, like, it was pretty clear that I was a three. But I think in the season that I was in and just where I had come from, I presented like a one because I did value, like, high quality perfection. You know, I was really creative, and so a lot of creative struggle with this. It's like, you can create a piece of artwork and people can look at it and go, oh, that's amazing. And then you look at it and all you see is, like, the areas that you want to change or adjust.
Ben Loy:Right? Mhmm. So I think that took some time for me to to step back from. But yeah. I mean, for a one, I I think, like, failure is just crushing if you're not operating from a healthy space.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Because you can't you don't have a worldview that Like, make makes room for For failure.
Ben Loy:For failure.
Alex Judd:Yeah. That's right. So it's interesting to think about, like, we're using the Enneagram as a tool. I am certainly not, an Enneagram disciple. I think it's a helpful tool, but there are some people that go gaga over the Enneagram.
Alex Judd:Kyle on our team, he's one of our coaches. He's a five on the Enneagram. Very process oriented, very methodical. And I've learned a lot by working with Kyle in that, I I guess, you know, we'd have to confirm with him, but my perception is, especially when he's creating a talk for us or something like that, his, like, failure through his lens is almost like it's not fully thought through or it's not comprehensive. Right?
Alex Judd:Like when he's working on a talk, it is it is like an emotional process for him because he wants to create something that gets to the bottom of every possible question and objection. And he, like, he has to see the through line on the whole thing. And so in some ways, I think five, like, a for a five on the enneagram or someone that's more process and method oriented, it's almost like failure is not being able to connect a to z in some ways or not or not being fully comprehensive in some ways. And so very, motivated by thinking things through and getting the full picture. I guess any other motives for failure that you or or avoiding failure or things like that that you observe in leaders in particular?
Ben Loy:Yeah. I mean, I think we've already touched on, like, perception. Right? Like, what do other people think of me? I think think if you're more wired towards the perfectionist posture and and I don't think I've any of these, like, exist in a vacuum.
Ben Loy:I think often every leader probably walks through some level of these challenges at different capacities. Like, you might struggle with one more than the other. Sure. But, like, in my mind, I mean, you're talking about Kyle, like, being committed to processes, enjoying like, I think in some respect, like, every leader is gonna value and appreciate and want certainty. And when that certainty is challenged, like, you're gonna struggle.
Ben Loy:Right? And so it's like, I think anyone can relate to that. I think maybe someone who's more predispositioned like Kyle might struggle more with that specifically. But, yeah, I mean, I think perception of others, I think your view of yourself or your view of your work and your capacity could be affected. I think your trust in a process or, yeah, your your desire for certainty or your your maybe even your belief around the possibility of certainty could be challenged.
Alex Judd:I don't know. I I just as you're saying that, one came to mind for me. Earlier, I said that, like, the thing I'm concerned with as an achiever is did I win? Yeah. I actually don't think that's correct.
Alex Judd:I think, like, what I perceive is, like, eights on the enneagram, the challengers Yeah. They are concerned with did I win? The thing that I'm concerned with as an achiever right? Hopefully the better angels of my nature know how to operate against this. And and I can certainly say there's times where I'm operating as a wise, healthy, centered leader where this isn't my driving motivation.
Alex Judd:But it's not even did I win? It's did I look like I won? And and it's like, I think that is whew. That is a lot of leaders that it's like, don't even like, the the actual results don't matter as much as, like, do people perceive me as being successful? And I mean yeah.
Alex Judd:So we're getting we're getting to the heart of things real quick of why I think this topic is so important for leaders to park on for a bit is because the the way your flesh views and captures and engages with failure reveals so much about your heart, I think. And if we're not aware of our tendencies or our shadow side in that, I think it's probably just gonna run wild in some ways.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Well, I guess we already pointed out how it can be challenging. Maybe what are some tendencies that leaders could have that would cause them to operate from an unhealthy spot when it comes to failure?
Alex Judd:I I think this is related. One of the things that I was thinking about as I was preparing for this conversation is, like, a nuance that I was excited to get into with you because I think it's one that I, at least, don't often hear talked about, and that's that there's a distinction between failure of character and failure of performance. Yeah. Yep. Right?
Alex Judd:Like and we just say, oh, that's a failure. But oftentimes, like, the way we talk about failure of performance, especially in business and leadership culture, is very different than the way we think and talk about failure of character. But sometimes we just use the word failure to cover all
Ben Loy:of it.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Right? And I I mean, I I guess what I mean by that is like, you know, we say celebrate failure or celebrate mistakes or like celebrate, like, you know, all of that. And it's like, what that is referring to is we we can celebrate mistakes or even failures, although I think there might even be some issues with that in performance because that's en route to learning and growth. We don't celebrate failure of character.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Like, if someone is experiencing, failure of integrity, break breakdown of motive. Right? Like, if they're coming at things in a way that isn't humble but is prideful or isn't others oriented but is selfish, we don't celebrate that and be like, that's awesome. Right?
Alex Judd:Absolutely not. And so for me, I think it was helpful to kinda spend some time thinking about there's a difference between failure of character and failure performance, but I think this is where it gets to your question, tendencies. I think a lot of times when we work too hard to avoid failure and performance, that's actually what leads to failure in character
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Is what I was thinking about. Yeah. Do you get what I'm saying there?
Ben Loy:No. I mean, it makes me it makes me think of, like so in in the instance of if you're focused on the perception on, like, other people's perceptions. Right? If you fail or you're experiencing failure in an area, your gut reaction or your tendency might just be to hide it.
Alex Judd:Right? Cover it up or lie.
Ben Loy:Yep. Which is obviously, like, a huge, huge character issue. Right?
Alex Judd:Yeah. And I think that's an area that I've had to grow a lot is, like, if my gut reaction is to hide performance mistakes that I made, well, that can lead to failure of character. And and I think it's sanctification is learning to make your gut reaction to apologize and ask for grace instead of to hide in
Ben Loy:some ways.
Alex Judd:Yeah. But the other thing that I would say as a tendency or as a means of creating a failure of character or making the environment ripe for a failure of character would be, like, if you don't have a worldview that makes room for failure of performance Mhmm. Then you will feel the need to always be on. Like, you you can never, Gerald Nichols was part of our coaching community for such a long time. He's just a leader that I respect so much.
Alex Judd:He's this guy from Texix that owns an electrical company. He and he would just always see. He's like, as a leader, you gotta find some time to let your hair down. It's like, Gerald, you don't have enough hair to let down. But, but I I think, like, that is very, very true.
Alex Judd:And what he's referring to there is, like, it's not sustainable for you to feel like you always have to be on, for you to feel like you have to project this image in front of everyone. The perceived need to do that, I think, is what often results in your off space being incredibly unhealthy because you you need escapes in some ways. Yeah. So what do you
Ben Loy:think it looks like to fail well?
Alex Judd:You're kinda hitting the two poles here of, like, what, like, what's the worst possible means of failure, which is probably failure of character, fail well. I think the standard go to business answer is learn from it. And I I agree with that. I think that that's obviously good. Right?
Alex Judd:But I think there's when we really talk about failing well and and for me, the word failing takes on more weight. Like, the I'm I'm now making or drawing a line between mistakes and failures. Mhmm. Like, if you actually fail, if you really screwed up, I think you've gotta acknowledge it. And in acknowledging it, what we're really talking about there is confess it and request grace for it.
Alex Judd:And I think requesting grace is like, to fail well, you have to request grace from God and from others, the people that were affected. And if you feel any, like, buck against, like, I don't wanna ask for forgiveness, recognize you are on the ride of pride. Right? Like, if you're doing that so, I mean, we're using very spiritual language, acknowledgment, confession, repentance. Right?
Alex Judd:Like, the Greek word for repentance is literally like teshuva, to, like, turn around a 180 degrees. Like, do different things to get different results. I'd like to go into more on the, like, Toshuva idea from a leadership perspective, but I'd like to hear anything you'd add on failing well.
Ben Loy:Well, I really like the distinguishment you just made between failure versus mistakes. Like, so how would you define a mistake versus a failure?
Alex Judd:Turning this into another question for me. Yeah. How how would we define the difference between the two?
Ben Loy:Yeah. Because is mistake void of, I guess, any character or moral failure.
Alex Judd:I mean, I'm trying to think about how we actually use the language.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And I, you know, I think someone could very easily say this is a semantics conversation. But the way we use the language, I think, is like, if I say I made a mistake, it's like there was a typo on an email, or I said something a little bit offhand in a meeting that I'm apologizing for or something like that. For me, if I say I failed, it communicates something more chronic, something more internal, and something more prolonged is what comes to mind for me. And I I think the language feels deeper probably because the reality is deeper, and if you say I failed, like, you're kind of reckoning with this is deeper than just a typo in some ways. Right?
Alex Judd:Like, I mean, if I made a typo, you're not sitting down with me and be like, is everything alright with your heart, Alex? Like, it's like, no. Like, I made a typo, dude. Right?
Ben Loy:Yeah.
Alex Judd:So I don't know. What are your thoughts there?
Ben Loy:That's funny because then I have the thought of, like, okay, if someone makes a administrative mistake, right, of some kind, that could lead to failure depending on how they receive feedback, like how they process through it. Right? I mean Sure. Theoretically. Something small could be just depending on where and how, like, how they respond to it and how they process through it could turn into failure in some capacity.
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Ben Loy:So So it's not so much it's not so much the mechanism as much as it is, like, the internal response, which I think you you pointed to.
Alex Judd:Right? Yeah. Okay. We're gonna go exploring here. So as you say that, what comes to mind for me is sin.
Alex Judd:The Greek word for sin is hamartia Mhmm. Which is an archery term. Mhmm. Right? It means, like, to miss the mark.
Alex Judd:Right? And so, you know, do do not pull out your bible and use it against me right now because I I'm definitely saying, like, even the Bible doesn't always use the Greek word for sin. So let's keep that in mind. But to miss the mark. If we're operating with the definition of to miss the mark, then is a typo Yeah.
Alex Judd:Right? It probably is. But the, that's a that's a difference. Like, you miss the mark, but, I mean, when oftentimes when we refer to the topic of sin, what we're talking about is prideful rebellion against God. How does a typo become prideful rebellion against God?
Alex Judd:And I think what you just alluded to with admit like, is what's your spirit around it? Yeah. Is your spirit around it like, oh, man, I screwed that up. Why? Because I'm human and I make mistakes and I need grace for my mistakes.
Alex Judd:Or is it like, I didn't make that typo. That wasn't my fault. Or like, what? You you don't get to correct me on this. Right?
Alex Judd:Or you are above correction or things like that. Like, well, now I think we're actually getting into prideful rebellion where you are cursing the ideal in some ways. Like instead of being willing to humbly receive grace for the fact that you made a mistake, you're now shaking your fist at the idea that words should be typed correctly in some ways. Yeah. I just picture a secretary going, curse.
Ben Loy:How does that show up?
Alex Judd:Oh, man. Well, I feel like in an exploration conversation like this, what I need from you now is like, dude, do do you think I just went way too far out?
Ben Loy:No. I mean, I might the first thing that came to mind for me when you were talking about where, like, where the heart is and, I mean, this obviously wasn't a failure at all, but, like, Jesus healing on the Sabbath. It's like Mhmm. The Pharisees were so obsessed with the religiosity and the process of the law that they, like, completely missed the mark on the heart behind, like, who God is. Mhmm.
Ben Loy:Right? Yeah.
Alex Judd:So okay. So how does that connect to mistake versus failure or mistake versus sin?
Ben Loy:I think like an overemphasis or a I mean, in many ways, like, it even overemphasizing your own failures can be a form of pride. Like, if you're
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Ben Loy:If you're so focused on perfectionism or being yeah. Or whatever it is that happened. Right? If you're just so focused on your failure and you're not able to look up from that, I think it can almost grow into its own form of an idol. Right?
Alex Judd:Man, that's so good. So I'm I'm reading a book right now called The Quest for Godliness. It's written by a guy named J. I. Packer.
Alex Judd:And I did not know this whenever I bought the book. I was like, that sounds like a cool title. Like, basically judged a book by its cover. It's exactly what I did. And what it essentially is, is a condensed history of the Puritan movement.
Alex Judd:And I, like, I got finished with page one. I was like, wow, this is gonna be
Ben Loy:Seems on brand for J. I.
Alex Judd:Patrick. Yeah. I was like, this could be a quest. This will be interesting. So one of the first things he highlights is that, like, when we hear the word puritan, we have thoughts in our heads and so often, this was definitely true for me, the thoughts that are that are get struck in our heads about what Puritans are are not what Puritans actually were.
Alex Judd:One thing that is true, if you read any Puritan prayers like the Valley of Vision or if you read any Puritan literature like John Owens or things like that, is, like, they spend so much time talking about sin. They spend a lot of time talking about sin. And I think that's where people often get the misconception that if you are a puritan preacher or a puritan in some ways, you're like fire and brimstone, just absolutely exactly what you said. You are pridefully engaging with failure where you're making this about you, and you're just depressive in some ways. And what he really highlights is, like, that does not at all connect with true puritanism because what these people were is they were so intimately aware of their limitations, and they spent time with their limitations, the areas where they fell short.
Alex Judd:But then that was always paired theologically with deep seated acknowledgment and recognition of the all sufficiency of God for their inadequacy. And the the end result of that was not depression. It was like abounding joy because it's like, man, I see how weak I am. But in seeing just how weak I am and just how sinful I am, I see how great God is and and how perfect grace is, and out of that I get to move forward. And it's like, I think sometimes we miss out on how good God is because we don't acknowledge how bad we are.
Alex Judd:Yeah. If I were to put it on a bumper sticker. Yeah.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Well, because, like, true humility isn't I mean, it's funny because people people look at humility and it's like, their view of that is, oh, woe is low is me or woe is me or I'm, you know I mean, I feel like that's a common language, especially, like, in reform circles. Right? There's Self deprecation. Yeah.
Ben Loy:Exactly. And and then the re the reality of that is, like, that's not actually humility because you're still navel gazing. Like, you're still you're still looking inward
Alex Judd:on life. Yourself at this point. Yeah.
Ben Loy:And, like, true humility is is having a right view and understanding of who God is. And so, like, looking up, understanding who he is, and then through that, in that informs, like, your failure and your need for grace. And then from that, a heart of of thankfulness and gratefulness. Right?
Alex Judd:Mhmm.
Ben Loy:So
Alex Judd:So in a leadership context, how do you communicate well on the back end of a team failure? So so we're probably now talking about failure performance.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Right? And I think so often, there's lessons on goal setting and vision casting, and they tell us to set goals that are 50 to 70% achievable because that's a BHAG that we're gonna go run after. But, I mean, there are remarkably few good lessons on, well, if it was 50% achievable, there was a 50% chance that you didn't hit it. And how do you lead in and through that? How do you communicate through that?
Alex Judd:So that's something that I really wanted to explore with you is what have you experienced from other leaders in that that do that well? What have you observed or any thoughts you have on that?
Ben Loy:I guess in the team setting, was this a, like, team oriented goal, or was this, like, the failure of the leader specifically or maybe an individual in the group?
Alex Judd:Let's say it's a team. Let's say we set a big hairy audacious goal of we're gonna hit 5,000,000 in annual revenue by the end of the year. Right? And that's a 25% increase in business. Right?
Alex Judd:And that was a goal that we were going for. And maybe we even pursued the the goal in a healthy way. Right? So sometimes we can get a little bit too antsy around revenue goals, but it's like they're not always bad. And maybe we even pursued the goal in a healthy way.
Alex Judd:We just didn't hit it. And maybe we hit four or four and a half and we grew, but we didn't quite hit five. And so now people look at it and we say, well, red, yellow, green were red. We didn't we missed the mark. What do you do then?
Ben Loy:Yeah. I mean, I guess it depends on the like, why that revenue goal was in that in that context. Like, it'd be why was that goal set? Right? Was it set out of a a reactionary, like, we're in a really bad place and we need to get to this spot to
Alex Judd:be free. Operate from the posture because this is what I witnessed the most of we're in a good spot. We're growing. We're moving forward. We're a healthy organization.
Alex Judd:And now we have decided as a team, the next right step is we want to try and grow and expand the business. And we think we think it's going be hard, but we think we could hit 5,000,000 by the end of the year.
Ben Loy:And then and then it doesn't happen.
Alex Judd:And then we hit four.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I mean, I think, like, a good leader would frame that in a way that's like, hey, we we did not reach the goal that we set out to reach, but, like, ultimately, the business still grew. And it I think it's and acknowledging the work that your team put in to accomplish that goal and I think celebrating that. On the flip side of that, having some level of standards. So if if it's like, oh, if we reach 5,000,000 by the end of the year, we're gonna have a retreat celebration of some kind.
Ben Loy:Right? I think maybe holding that line of like, hey, we're not actually going like, this is the this is the line that we drew, and so we're not actually going to celebrate because we didn't cross the goal, but then ultimately, like, we can still be proud of what we accomplished. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:You know,
Ben Loy:being able to frame that in a way that that's still inspiring and doesn't crush people's spirits Mhmm. And, like, keeps them motivated.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Well, one of the things that you already highlighted is I have actually had conversations with leaders before where they say, hey, we're in q four, and all signs are pointing to, like, we're not gonna hit this thing. Or, like, we didn't hit the goal. Mhmm. And then they say, do I mention it?
Alex Judd:Or do I just, like and and it's very tempting Yeah. To be very vocal in the setting of goals, but then not at all be vocal in the evaluation of goals when we don't hit them.
Ben Loy:So that was actually my first thought when you were talking about it was I was like, I feel like in my act in my experience, when lofty goals have been set and they haven't been accomplished, I feel like they often just go away silently. Like, nobody it's like it's like this elephant in the room that we're just gonna, like, continue to walk by and operate around until it shrinks until something else gets big enough that, like, we're distracted and we just kind of forget about it.
Alex Judd:What's the so we've obviously both clarified that we both don't think that that's the right approach as
Ben Loy:a leader.
Alex Judd:No. What's the damage that that does? I think
Ben Loy:trust takes a really big hit from, like, if you are a leader and you've set a goal and then something like that happens and then you choose to just ignore that reality, like, I think you're going to lose trust in the people that are following you, like, without a doubt. Because not only is does it show a like, the the reason why that goal wasn't met could be a million different reasons. But then the failure to acknowledge it shows that, like, your words and, like, the commitment that you supposedly had in the setting of this goal and the vision casting aren't actually backed by, like, your character and and follow through. And I think that that's really, really hard as, like, someone who's trying to follow someone. Like, you you can't trust what they're gonna say Mhmm.
Ben Loy:Or that, like, what they the goals that they set they're actually going to work towards and and even acknowledge when it comes to the hard parts of it, the failures, and things like that.
Alex Judd:So That that's right. I think that's right. Because, you know, if you're a good vision caster, you put your heart into it, you put your passion into it, you you energize people, you you call out the best in others and say the thing you you say the things that you believe are on the team that could help you get this goal. That's if you're a good vision caster. And if you're a bad vision caster, then that's your failure.
Alex Judd:Right?
Ben Loy:Yeah. But if
Alex Judd:you're a good vision caster, you do all those things. And then if you get a year down the road and you don't acknowledge that, like, basically you were wrong, trust, it's like, do people what do people when they say I don't trust, they're either saying I don't trust your competency or I don't trust your integrity.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And maybe in this situation, both are certainly not I don't trust his integrity, but it certainly, like, becomes a little bit gray because it's like, is it that he knows, but he's he's Yeah. Like, covering it up a little bit, or they don't trust your competency? Like, does he just not know? Did he forget about the goal that he set? And and both of those are sow seeds of doubt
Ben Loy:Yep.
Alex Judd:Into what's actually going on.
Ben Loy:Well, and in many ways, like, the the more effective you are at casting vision, like, the more damage that's gonna do on the back end. Mhmm. Right? Like, if you're if you're incredible at casting vision, getting people excited, driving it with purpose, and, like, people are are connecting with that in a big way, the fallback on you not only not meeting that goal and following through, but then not acknowledging it is gonna be so much greater than if you were like, hey, let's just accomplish this one thing and then goes away.
Alex Judd:Yeah. That's right. The other thing that stands out to me as to why it's actually not in a a leader's best interest to just shove it under the rug and be like, bet people forgot about it, is the standards you apply yourself to collectively always become standards that people adopt individually. So if you show people collectively, organizationally, we are willing to just basically ignore failures, you're now giving everyone on the team a lesson that, like, when you make individual mistakes, the the strategy that we apply ourself to or the standard that we apply ourself to here is we can just shove it under the rug. And if you're asking for individual ownership but not taking organizational ownership, people are gonna experience I mean, they're gonna be like, this is hypocrisy.
Alex Judd:Right? Like, we can't like, that's not fair. Yeah. And so I think we should expect from the whole what we expect from the individual. But then, you know, in some ways, this is why I I just this could sound bad, but I look at people that lead a business, like, that lead a small business in particular that don't know what their faith is, and I look at those people like they have four eyes just because I think it I don't know how I would do that.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. I I literally don't know how I would do it because my faith tells me what I believe in tells me some a message that I can also extend to our team is like, hey, we failed, and, like, we did not hit the mark, or we did not do what we set out to do. It's a good thing we are not what we do. Right. Right?
Alex Judd:Like, it's a good thing, like, our value as people certainly, but even as a team does not come from strictly our individual performance, and it's a good thing we believe in grace. Like, I think you can and should talk about that. And I actually think that, like, that is a necessary conversation in the building of a mature team
Ben Loy:in some ways. And I don't know how you navigate that conversation without bringing God into the picture. Right? Like
Alex Judd:Well, and that's that's the thing. People would say, well, you could say, well, I'm not a person of faith, but, I mean, I believe in all those things. We are not what we do. We, like, can receive grace and, like, we can move forward out of that. And it's like, oh, so you are a person of faith.
Alex Judd:Right. You believe in something.
Ben Loy:Yeah.
Alex Judd:We we have not clarified yet what you believe. Yeah. But the idea of, like, I'm not a person of faith No.
Ben Loy:I I guess the way I view that is, like, okay, if you're if you're saying what you're not and you're it's okay. We're not gonna identify as our failures. We're not gonna identify as whatever. And you go down this list, like, you're you're emptying a void. Like, what are you filling that with?
Ben Loy:Mhmm. Right? Like, if you it because there's there's a lot of problems to okay. If we're not our failures, are we our successes? Because there's a lot of problems with identifying with that as well.
Ben Loy:Right? Like, if if we're
Alex Judd:Or culturally, you are not your failures. You are what you perceive you to be. Yep. Like in like, the the hero in that story is the individual. Yep.
Alex Judd:And your self identification has become God in that scenario.
Ben Loy:Which changes, like Oh, yeah. Dramatically in life seasons and as, like, hardship comes and, I mean, even, like, in in highs and lows, like, your own perception of yourself is so volatile. And any any, like, counselor or therapist can tell you is something that, like, you can more or less work to change just through, like, thinking.
Alex Judd:Yeah. So That so that's how I think about blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Like, blessed are the poor in spirit. Oftentimes, like, I see two approaches to life and leadership. Approach one is inadequacy.
Alex Judd:Right? I am not enough. I'm not enough. I'll never be enough, and it's nihilistic. It's depressive.
Alex Judd:It's negative. You are you are dwelling in your total inadequacy. I am not enough. Culture swings the pendulum the other way and says, you don't listen to that voice. You don't use that self talk.
Alex Judd:You are enough. Like, you listen to me. You are enough. And you just should just stand in the morning and look in the mirror every single morning and say, I am enough. Right?
Alex Judd:And and I think blessed are the poor in spirit is not that. Right? Like, are those who realize how spiritually bankrupt they are and how totally just I mean, at the bottom of things they are. I am not enough, but Christ in me is enough. Right?
Alex Judd:Like, on my own, I am so far from adequate. It's not even funny, and I can understand that, but Christ in me is enough. And so that's where it's like some of these cultural messages, like, people will tell you, you are not a failure. Right? Well, is that a Christian message?
Alex Judd:Because maybe you are, but praise God, like, you are not your worst actions and, like, you you were not victorious. He was victorious, and so now you may have life in some ways. Yeah. I Not I should correct that. Not in some ways.
Alex Judd:Like, I in all ways.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, one of the one of my favorite things about reading through the Old Testament is because peep a lot of people will parse the Old and the New Testament and it's like, oh, you've got you've got, like, the feathered hair, Jesus, like, loving God who accepts you for who you are, and then you have, like, the Old Testament, like, judgment, destruction.
Alex Judd:I I heard it was Erwin McManus say it recently. He was like, lots of people perceive, like, the Old Testament God as the God of wrath, anger, and fire, and then he went to a therapist, and we get Jesus. Yeah. That is how we often perceive
Ben Loy:what I've But, like, when you really read intentionally through the Old Testament, I mean, what it is, it's just a continued story of, like, God just continually redeeming, redeeming and restoring, and redeeming and restoring. And, and it just shows up in so many subtle ways. I mean, the one of the bible studies, the bible study I go to on Tuesdays that I'm in, like, we're going through Joshua right now and the story of Jericho and Rahab. Like, a prostitute, a gentile is redeemed and even, like, is then woven into the bloodline of Jesus. Mhmm.
Ben Loy:And, like, God is just, like, taking people from these far corners of the earth and restoring them. Right? And I think what's even more interesting, something we talked about was Rahab's son based on that that same bloodline, it was Boaz who was like I mean, all in all, it's something that someone that people look up to as a leader and a man and who, like, loves and cares for women well. And, like, his his mother was prostitute. That's right.
Ben Loy:Like, it's it's so interesting. And I mean, there's just there are there are so many bits and pieces of that that just it's like, I call them mini gospels. It's like God is just, like, sprinkling in his character and his redemption to, like, point us towards Jesus.
Alex Judd:Yeah. You know? I think it was Karl Marx that said religion is the opiate of the masses. I think it was Karl Marx. That that would be the first time I've quoted Karl Marx on this podcast.
Alex Judd:Plan to not make a habit of that. But if that's the case, if religion, particularly if Christian religion is the opiate of the masses, why why would you make it so real? Like, Noah is, I think, a great example. Right? Like, this is such a, like, excellent archetypal story of, like, man lives apart from his generation and is able to prepare for and prophesy the future and honestly take actions so that himself, his family, humanity, and creation is preserved.
Alex Judd:And because of his integrity filled actions, he wades through the storm and survives the flood. That's a beautiful ending to that story that would probably pretty effectively work as the opiate of the masses. Unfortunately, there's there's a little snippet towards the end of that where it's like Noah gets drunk, and he ends up naked and made fun of by his sons and is basically ashamed as a fool very close to the end of his life in the narrative. And it's like, I mean, failure. Right?
Alex Judd:That that is not a mistake. That is a failure in some ways. And I I think sometimes if we're not careful, we gloss over those parts and just tell the my little kid's bible version to ourselves. The problem is, like, we're adults now and, like, we need to have a worldview that acknowledges for humanity in Noah because I am a human too. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And if I can't see it in Noah, I certainly won't be able to see it in myself.
Ben Loy:Yeah. One of the biggest inclinations, I think, when people read the Bible and especially read the Old Testament is they will they will place themselves and, like, I try to identify with the hero in the story in a way that is, oh, like, I either need to be more like him or, like, this is who we should be. And I think so often in especially if you really read all the way through, those people end up failing at some point. And I think, like, understanding where we are in the story is so important. Like, we we are not the hero.
Ben Loy:Like and that is just that is the reality. And, like, I I think having an understanding that brings you to a place of humility and dependence on God is honestly the the answer to how to walk through failure well.
Alex Judd:I've shared this with you. Like, I'm going through the old testament right now. I just started Lamentations this morning, which woof. You and her talk about, like, coinciding with your failure. Right?
Alex Judd:But when you actually start from the beginning and walk through all of these mini gospels in some ways, whenever you find a short snippet of someone that truly was honorable and righteous and then they were buried, it is like, I mean, a little treasure. And what's crazy is those stories actually aren't very long. Like, the one that's coming to mind, I think his name was Hezekiah. And, like, you, like, read it and you're like, this guy didn't get nearly as much space as David did. Like, he didn't get nearly as much airtime as David did, but it appears as though in the short snippets we've got, he seemed like he was much more honorable.
Alex Judd:And and but the thing that is true about Hezekiah is, like, he kept God as the hero for his entire life, it seems like, and, like, was able to keep that front and center. Whereas David or Saul got into trouble maybe at the very moment that they started to perceive themselves as the hero or the arbitrator or or the aggressor versus being submitted to the will of God.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:How do you take responsibility as a leader for a failure of it, of a team, right, or or even multiple people were involved in something? How do you take responsibility without simultaneously stealing responsibility? Is the question that I have. And and I'm actually being a very particular story whenever I'm asking this question is one of my first jobs out of college, I, it was so cool. I was running a leadership development group.
Alex Judd:We were hosting leadership development events. They were going super well. And I I was always so grateful for how much ownership I felt in the role that I had. And, like, I got to make decisions. I I got to be creative, all of that stuff.
Alex Judd:Right? And I thrived on that. We do an event where the event went well. The speaker that we had for the event was a dud. It was bad.
Alex Judd:No. Which was the centerpiece of the event. Right? And, like, we chose a speaker for the event that we did not properly vet, and it just was bad. And we had all these people there.
Alex Judd:We had done a great job marketing. Unfortunately, good marketing of a bad product
Ben Loy:Back is to casting vision really Exactly. Well and not
Alex Judd:And I'll never forget, I sat down with my boss at the time, and I started to say, like, I'm so sorry, like, I'm so sorry, like, we met and he stopped me and he said, Alex, don't say another word. This was on me. This was my fault. Like, I should have done x y z. I take full responsibility for this.
Alex Judd:This was absolutely on me. Don't say another word. To which you could think I would leave that feeling good. I actually left that feeling awful because I was like, I thought I had a role in this thing. Yeah.
Alex Judd:Like, I thought I was making a difference, and it turns out, like, I don't actually have responsibility. Yeah. But I've always looked at that and been like, if I put myself in his shoes, I don't know that I would have done something different. Like, we could look at what he did and said, man, that's a good leader right there. But the effect that it had on me doesn't actually feel like what you would want a leader's impact to be.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I think one of the things this is, I mean, a really common principle in leadership in general and how to lead others well is making sure that they have ownership in their role.
Alex Judd:Sure.
Ben Loy:And I think most often we think of that being, oh, make sure that they're they are winning. They feel like they're winning. They feel like they have a say and have agency and are heard. The flip side of that that same coin could be removing that ownership through failure. Right?
Ben Loy:Like, making sure that not only are they owning the role and their successes, but, like, maybe they have they do have to own the mistakes and the failures and the results of that role. Yes. And so when you remove the other side of that, it it really just neutralizes that entire experience.
Alex Judd:That's right. So I I thought of this this morning, and I and I hadn't thought about it in this context, but it was actually really helpful. This will probably air let's see. This episode will probably air right before Texas plays Ohio State in week one of the college football season. Praise God.
Alex Judd:It's back. Thank goodness. Right? I'm so excited because now are all of my college football references are gonna be relevant again. So so college football, I just love because I think it's such an illustration of so many real world principles playing out in real time and very black and white.
Alex Judd:And one of the topics that I wrote down that I wanted to get into today that we kind of touched on but didn't really get into is like, gray failure is really hard for a leader. Like, the thing I love about college football is it's black and white. You won or you lost. Right? A lot of times, it's a lot more gray in leadership.
Alex Judd:Like, was that all my fault? Is that a loss or is that partially a win? There's some redeeming qualities. In college football, it's a win or a loss. When the college football team loses and they had a bad performance, like an awful performance, the coach goes into the press conference afterwards.
Alex Judd:What should that coach say in that moment? It is in his best interest and everyone's best interest to say, this is on me. This is my fault. I take full responsibility. And there are coaches.
Alex Judd:One of them has the first name of Jimbo that literally his press conferences would be the plays were all there. It was just execution, which is literally code for it's the player's fault. It's not my fault. Right? But the good coach in that situation, and we will see this this fall, the good coach will stand in front of the press room and they will say, this is all on me.
Alex Judd:Then what I was thinking about is, okay, that's in the press room. That's publicly. That's the group setting all of that. Then they leave the press room. Do you think that they're going in to the locker room and saying, y'all don't have anything to work on this week?
Alex Judd:That that loss was all on me. I'm gonna go get my act together, but y'all are good. No. Right. He's probably talking individually with particular coaches, particular players that made mistakes or weren't properly prepared or didn't show correct effort or or made a dumb dumb move or something like that.
Alex Judd:And working with them on their responsibility as it related to the overall loss. So I think there's a there's a good lesson there in that it's like publicly and even collectively, I take responsibility for all of it. But part of me taking responsibility for the whole is then having the individual conversations so that people take individual ownership of the things that they could have done to create a different outcome in some ways.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And and I I'd like to get your thoughts on this too before we close out. But I think what I experienced in that moment that I talked about earlier with my boss was the the press conference being correct. Like, he did exactly what he should have done, but there was never that locker room moment or that office moment where I was forced to reckon with the role that I could have played that I didn't play to create a better result in some ways.
Ben Loy:Yeah. That's a really good example just in publicly owning the role that you have as a leader, like, in the impact. Like, as a head coach, you're gonna have a huge impact on the culture, the way the team plays, the strat I mean, like, everything from the top down. Right? But then at on the flip side of that, the reality is you're dealing with a team of human beings and human beings fail.
Ben Loy:That's right. You know? And so being able to own the responsibility of the decisions that were made, the the the strategy that was taken, and just how the game went in general, but then turning around and and for your team coming with their respective of like, okay, what went well? What can we improve? What are the areas that we need to work on?
Ben Loy:And, like, having more grace, I guess.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I'm definitely not advocating. I feel like this is important to say. Like, I am definitely not advocating for make sure you present the image that that you're saying this is all my fault. Yeah.
Alex Judd:But then in your head, you're thinking like, this is actually their fault. And like, I'm gonna make sure they they know about that and we work on them. Your your literal job is to prepare them to be successful and to give them everything they need to be successful. So if they weren't successful, all roads lead to you in some ways. So but I think maybe what we're breaking down here is it's not either or, it's yes and.
Alex Judd:Are you fully responsible? Absolutely, you are. Do they have a role to play that leads to the success and failure of what you're doing? Absolutely, they do. Both are true, and we don't we shouldn't say it's one or the other.
Alex Judd:Because the minute you get into one or the other, you're now basically just blaming is essentially what you're doing.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Judd:Okay. Is there anything else on the topic of failure that we should explore in the remaining time we have?
Ben Loy:I don't think we have much remaining time. Excellent.
Alex Judd:Very good. Okay. Well, I'm eager to see what our next exploration conversation is. Sounds great. Well, there you have it.
Alex Judd:Thanks so much for joining us for this episode. If you want any of the information or resources that we mentioned, that's all in the show notes. Hey, before you go, could I ask you for one quick favor? Could you subscribe, rate, and review this podcast episode? Your feedback is what helps our team engage in a sequence of never ending improvement.
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